U.S. providing $40 billion in new aid to AIG

Before folks go off the deep end, I think you should all be aware of THIS...  The government over the last eight years has been going to AIG *asking* them to aquire loans from failing banks, insuranse, and other financial institutions.  AIG aquired *alot* of bad loans that THEY NEVER MADE but tried to help out the institutions to prevent the government from stepping in and aquiring these bad loans or paying for them.

AIG, subsequently placed *themselves* in a bad situation doing so...  they thought they would be large enough to safely aquire them.  And then the housing market collapses and so many defaulted loans put AIG in a failed situation.

In this case, I wish people would stop BASHING AIG, and realize that now the government who begged AIG to help is now having to do what they originally avoided doing, i.e. taking over alot of failed loans.   In *my* opinion, its the only proper thing to do AFTER THE GOVERNMENT PUT AIG in this situation.

Please stop looking at AIG on the surface and instead DIG DEEPER into why they have so many failed loans.... its was the GOVERNMENTS FAULT and its only fair they help an organization out they thought could weather the situation.  Point fingers where they are deserved.

Did AIG miss the whole "Just say No" campaign. It rings true for more things than drugs or unprotected sex.
They had a duty to their clients and stockholder to make sound investments and protect their bottom line. Their leadership failed so the company should fail.

Passing the buck is a poor excuse, AIG assumed bad debt and should suffer the consequences.

Then AIG should have "dug deeper" into those loans and had experts perdict what would be the outcome of this idea.....

Why should we stop bashing AIG, they failed to protect their own bottom line, you think that this all has to do with the mortgage mess, please.  Has anyone thought to mention the fact that all of those so called bad mortgages had mortgage insurance?  No, no one is talking about the mortgage insurance, that every new loan had tacked onto it, that mortgage insurance was to be paid by the mortgagor in case of default on the loan, then the  loan holder would not be left holding the bag, so tell me why, the Mortgage premium insurance is not and has not been paying out on these bad loans.  I pay mortgage premium insurance, and let me tell you it's not a little bit of money;  no one is talking about that, and you know who is supposed to be paying that money out, alot of that mortgage premium insurance went to yes, you got it, AIG.  They were and still are the recipient of a good portion of the  mortgage premium insurance and they refused to pay out when loans defaulted which put other institutions in jeapordy.  I do not feel any pity for any banks, or credit card companies, or car companies.  they have been treating the american people like low lifes for many of years, and they wonder why we don't want to buy from them, they deserve to fail, they have been acting like kings of the hill for a very long time, they do not try and work with anyone to save their mortgage, they buy and sell, and they get their money, they have no mercy for anyone, why is it that we should have mercy on them?  someone give me one good reason.  PS, have you been hired as their new spokes person?

AAAAAh is see now....the old you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.  My friend what you are implying is that if I break bread with a friend  and "help" him in a tough business situation; he is indebted to me by action alone.  I would never allow anyone to hold my company hostage in that situation.  The risks and decisions are theirs and that's just business.  Have you forgotten the old but true...Never do business with family or friends.

Another fiasco from Bush and company.

Changed the 'loan' to a giveaway.

How do we get Bush out TODAY. He is no longer affordable, FIRE him this morning, before this gets even more of a disaster.  

UNACCEPTABLE

They have 1 trillion dollars in assets, let them borrow the money from someone.

Can you imagine, we almost elected BUSH part 2.

So let me get this straight.  NONE  of this money is going to pay for any EXPENSIVE trips and NONE of this moeny is going to pay for CEO's BONUS" - RIGHT!!!!!!

Do we have anything in writing stating what this money can be used for????

Good grief, the Treasury acted on its own?  Oh thank you, Paulson.

Why Congress let him have a blank check is beyond me.  If he's going to throw $40 billion around, maybe it should have been to GM - although that's just another lost cause.

The reason AIG needs more money is because they burned through $85 billion already by giving away billions to upper management and the CEO's in bonuses!

And now they have the audacity to ask for more?! It's obvious those greasy fingered crooks have already earmarked the $40 billion for some personal gain and not just to quell the fires they created by gambling their shareholder money at the craps tables.

I wonder if it is possible for our new president to send in the troops and arrest Bush and take over NOW.

If we let BUSH stay, this 'BAILOUT' crap could even escalate to  few TRILLION dollars more. He is cleaning house at America' expense.

ARREST him NOW.

UNACCEPTABLE

At the time that AIG helped out our Government by agreeing to aquire these bad loans, nobody foresaw what was going to happen to the housing market.  If AIG had a crystal ball, I am sure they would have refused to take the loans over AND THEN WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED....

The government would have taken them over - and AGAIN it would all fall back on the American Public - SOMEBODY WAS GOING TO HAVE TO PAY SOMEWHERE at the end-game of this fiasco. 

Perhaps there was some flagrant spending at AIG - I do not know all the inside information on this, but what I do know is time and time again, its let AIG fail... LET AIG FAIL AND YOU REALLY ARE PUTTING THE WORLD INTO A DEPRESSION....  its all a matter of the government paying NOW or paying later.... The government took a gamble that they might not have to pay off at all...  didnt work... and now the government who passed off paying on all these bad loans is now trying to help out AIG...

CRY ALL YOU WANT PEOPLE BUT WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE...  let all the big bank institutions fail???  Are you prepared to see all your investments deteriorate into nothing, the government is NOT GOING TO REIMBURSE YOU ON YOUR ORIGINAL INVESTMENT VALUE...  when the instution fails you can betch a$$  your going to be reimbursed at the worst possible value...  so if you have any investments at all you better hope NOBODY fails in the lending sector...  on the investers at this point are going to get screwed.

ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO ARE SCREAMING LET THEM FAIL, LET THEM FAIL... are the ones afraid of a socialist government - well guess what - PURE CAPITALISM HAS FAILED OVER AND OVER AGAIN because of greed and embesslement, etc etc. etc..   how many times does capitalism have to rear its ugly head to prove its a hard hard system that screws the majority of people??

Socialism is not the big bad ugly word you want to make it out to be - true it can be corrupted with a corrupt government, but when you have a good government then it can be a positive thing as seen with many other countries around the world.

Same for nationalized medicine - you folks are being ripped off totally by a BUSINESS that is only looking out for itself, not for the people -

Instead of only blaming the CEO's why not put the blame squarely where it belongs, on the current BUSH administration. This fiasco didn't happen overnight, it has been building for a while now, and hidden by BUSH & Co. It did not start because of Freddie and Fannie, they're only a part of the problem. This has happened because of deregulation, pushed by people like McCain and other Republicans promoting the Reagan policies of trickle down econonomics. I think that means when the RICH pee it is supposed to trickle down on us. This whole 'experiment' has been a disaster on America.  
 
REAGAN and DEREGULATION
 
While much of the blame for this mess goes back to Republicans of the past, this current situation goes back to Ronald Reagan. He started this country on the road to ruin with his policies, especially deregulation, making some people rich and fooling people that the rich would make the country grow. After all, the rich are the people who invest and make jobs grow, right.
 
The truth is since his presidency, we now have 6 million millionaires. Many of the good jobs have gone overseas. Many others are no longer good jobs because of being filled by illegal aliens that he gave a free pass to. Our children now earn less than we did. CEO's are paid obscene salaries for losing money and outsourcing jobs. This financial experiment has been a TOTAL failure for average people and a financial windfall for the rich. When will it end. With the exception of Bill Clinton who gave us a surplus, America has been run to the ground by Republican administrations since 1980. Had enough, end this insane experiment of "voodoo" economics.
 
While some blame goes to the Democrats, much more goes to the Republicans.
 
After just receiving 85 billion weeks ago, and then another 38 billion, now AIG is getting another 40 billion dollars. Before this mess is over, it will cost us Gazillions. ( There is no name yet for what this will add up to ). This BAILOUT is just the tip of the iceberg, and the name of our ship is Titanic.
 
This is UNACCEPTABLE.

Devil,

While you make some very valid points especially your point about health care, however

nobody foresaw what was going to happen to the housing market. 

This is simply untrue. Many people saw it, reported on it and were labeled "nuts." The one that comes most clearly to my mind is Glenn Beck who has been saying that just such this scenario will occur for well over a year.

And guess what? I can't find him on TV anymore.

Just reported on CNN,

AIG Bonus' to be limited, great news, NOT.

How about NO bonus' PERIOD. How do they deserve bonuses for losing money ????????

At the time that AIG helped out our Government by agreeing to aquire these bad loans, nobody foresaw what was going to happen to the housing market. 

Nonsense.  I could see where loaning money to anybody who could breathe was going, and I'm not in the business.  I think it's a bit farfetched for people who are making millions a month to claim they had no idea that this was going to be a problem.  If they had no idea, they should be flipping burgers for a living.

You know, Devil, I don't really have the problem of the Fed bailing them out.....IF they had not spent billions on EXPENSIVE trips for their execs!!!!!!!!  Now they get another 40 billion!! Where do they get to go this time?? Scotland for golfing?  A cruise??  Cause you know, they are working so hard to save their company!! They need these vacations!! NOT!  Quit spending my tax dollars recklessly!

MSNBC -

$167.8 Billion total - so far to AIG

Devils.Advocate

IDK where you got this info. But I do not buy it. You sound very biased on this story. And it is NOT being reported. And since it is from the 'BUSH' government, it is unbelievable. Bush is the biggest crook in history.

STOP HIM NOW

Source PLEASE

 This really disgusts me, how many more "junkets" at our expense? They should be forced to get their lunches at soup kitchens from now on.

microsoftsucks,

i 'm sure if you check their 10-ks and such, you will see no such thing.

mwhitebear,

ummm the finanical mess of aig and that of the mortgage meltdown are 2 separate issues.  aig is a case of the nys and delaware insurance commissioners not doing their jobs and allowing them to issue 'credit default swap' policies, with insufficient premiums to cover potential losses.  when aig couldn't pay foreign governments or investors, it then became a matter of credibility that the US would let an American company welch out on it's obligations.

mortgage meltdown is solely a fannie and freddie problem.  1977 CRA.  1993 NHOI.  dodd and frank singlehandedly blocked efforts at reform and oversight by W and the GOP.  youtube has the videos.

banking deregulation - google 'ferdinand st james'.  banking deregulation written in 1979.

next jackla$$ comment please?

And as far as "bashing" AIG, they DESERVE it for pissing away money and living like royalty at the expense of everyone else. I curse all CEOs.

Aren't there any rules for getting "bailout" money? Like zero bonus for wealthy executives of companies who get bailout money? Some sort of timetable for paying the money back? A limit on how much an individual company can get?

AIG alone is going to break the bank. They have already gotten $150 billion...that's 21.4% of the total $700 billion bailout! Yet they can take their executives on fancy spa retreats and "dove hunting" junkets to England so they can calculate bonuses for themselves after they've hemorrhaged millions of dollars. Maybe they would be better served on these retreats if they spent some time measuring for curtains in their prison cells...because after taking billions from us, that is where they belong!

I'm tired of hearing about millionaire company executives -- and Bush supporters, since his policies enabled them -- taking more millions in "bonuses" when their company is losing money hand over fist. Where are their boards of directors? Why haven't these executives been fired...and with no "golden parachute"? The way this country does business at the highest level...it's a wonder more companies haven't failed! They've had Dubya behind them...and I suspect Barack Obama isn't going to be so forgiving...

I need to figure out how to get my hands on some of this cash!

I just need to mislead millions of people into investing with my NEW firm and screw them all over by being stupid and selfish!

Yeah, that's the ticket!

wildweasel66-358178

mwhitebear,

ummm the finanical mess of aig and that of the mortgage meltdown are 2 separate issues.  aig is a case of the nys and delaware insurance commissioners not doing their jobs and allowing them to issue 'credit default swap' policies, with insufficient premiums to cover potential losses.  when aig couldn't pay foreign governments or investors, it then became a matter of credibility that the US would let an American company welch out on it's obligations.

mortgage meltdown is solely a fannie and freddie problem.  1977 CRA.  1993 NHOI.  dodd and frank singlehandedly blocked efforts at reform and oversight by W and the GOP.  youtube has the videos.

banking deregulation - google 'ferdinand st james'.  banking deregulation written in 1979.

next jackla$$ comment please?

You get your 'facts' from Youtube, and you have the nerve to call me a Jackass. We see through you feeble minded attempts to blame the Dems, but people see the truth, and not from Youtube. What is next blame Obama for the Bush bailouts, nice try. 

The Government put AIG in this situation? You must be out of your mind! Their management needs to give their bonuses back and replaced immediately. They should face criminal charges for mismanaging the company. Never mind that the government asked them to do this, that and the other thing. They are not a government agency and all they had to do is say NO ...

AIG's investment history has never taken place for reasons other than making unusually high returns that then can be funneled to non-other than it's own CEO.

M. WHITE BEAR

You say "Arrest Bush Now".

Obviously, you are nothing but an extremist. Would you also recommend arresting Obama if we don't agree with his policies? The root cause of the credit crisis is loose lending standards by Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac, encouraged by Washington's attempts to "bring the dream of home ownership to everyone". Those pushing for these lax standards included far more Democrats than Republicans, although all on the Congressional Oversight Committees need to share the blame. Also on the blame list should be the Credit Rating companies like Standard and Poors who failed miserably in their ratings of the Mortgage Backed Securities that the investors relied upon for risk assessment. AIG just made the mistake of believing the ratings given them, as did countless other investors.

Honestly, he should have been impeached a while ago. I believe the only thing holding it back was Dick Cheney becoming POTUS.

um mwhite,

your boldfacing is completely out of synch. your boldface of my comments about aig are in no way related to your boldfacing the youtube comment.  they stand separately.  aig is aig, and the fannie/freddie debacle is fannie/freddie.

when i said that the clips of dodd and frank are on youtube, i was referrring to the televised hearings they held, as broadcast by c-span. those are on youtube. and yes, it was the dems singlehandedly creating the mortgage meltdown-1977 and 1993.  google the pieces of legislation i named, then research the practical application that had to occur for lenders to meet the requirements of that legislation.  it was also the dems singlehandedly blocking meaningful reform, with both frank and dodd calling it racist.

This is the "new" news on AIG and the Government regulators;

"U.S. regulators responsible for supervising American International Group now acknowledge that they has (another well proofed article) failed to grasp the impact of provisions in the complex derivative contracts that pushed the world's largest insurance company to the brink of collapse."

There may have been "complex" parts to that business, but there were ALWAYS people who were analyzing AIG and had a VERY GOOD GRASP of what scams they had going on!

These Government NITWITS just ignored everything that they were told, heard or read.  Probably under orders from people controoled by the Lobby, NO?!

What does everyone else think out here on Newsvine?

Well... I'm anxious to hear from the Fed.  I've continued to operate my restaurant with inflated energy costs, rising grocery costs, increased property taxes, increased labor expenses and a declining guest base that communicates it's concern over the economy for decreased visits.  I may soon be out of business as a result.  So I'm looking forward to an opportunity to sell a portion of my business to the Fed.  This way we can all share in my misery.  Oh, never mind, if I did that I would only be selling something to myself that I already own.  And it will not create any new revenues.

mwhite,

the GOP has tried to pass legislation for closing the borders via barrier fence, your buddies on the left derailed it.

"The root cause of the credit crisis is loose lending standards by Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac, encouraged by Washington's attempts to "bring the dream of home ownership to everyone"."

Nonsense.  The root (and branch and twig) cause was the stampede by Republican deregulationists, led by Alan Greenspan and Bush, to allow industries, especially in the financial sector to "police themselves."  As Greenspan admitted recently, it just never occurred to him that these financial giants could act so irresponsibly.

There was a very good reason that the network of financial regulations were enacted in the wake of the Great Depression.  Naturally, the banks and other financial institutions bristled at them.  Why wouldn't they?  But those regulations worked for fifty plus years.  It's not as if the bank, investment and insurance lobbying began thirty years ago; it's just that either the collective memory, the political will, or, perhaps both, had wilted, replaced by a complacency bred in ignorance.

This was apparent to anyone paying attention at that time.  The very notion of trickle-down economics was a slap in the face to anyone with an atom of common sense; it was a triumph of wishful ideology over pragmatic reality.  Regardless, once freed of their regulatory restraint, these players did what any fool could have predicter they would do.  That is to say, they practiced unbridled capitalism, maximized shareholder profits and earned themselves obscenely large bonuses.

The collective wisdom among these titans of industry was that they could always jump ship, landing with a golden parachute, should there ever be a real obstacle ahead.  And do you know what - - almost all of them did that, are doing it, or are planning their imminent jump.  What a surprise! 

Such stupidity and naivety was and is par for the course for Bush and his neocon sycophants.  It's a shame that those with little or no understanding of economics chose to accept Greenspan as a guru without taking the time to look behind his pronouncements.

As for AIG being the victim of shouldering the burden of bad loans?  If someone, anyone, asked me to do them a favor and take over a bad loan, I wouldn't look at it as a chance for heroism.  I would run in the opposite direction as fast as I could.  Unless, of course, AIG had some ulterior motive, like more federal welfare or more deregulation.

It will take a lot more than I have read for me to even entertain the idea that AIG has ever been, in any way, altruistic.

Just curious if anyone knows how much money AIG provides Manchester United Football Club for it's title sponsorship?  Anyone? 

Devils.Advocate

Bottom line AIG is a private company publicly traded. They are supposed to make sound decision for the stock holder.....period... They got in bed because they were making a lot of money off these  notes and to think they did not see the pyramid starting to fall would say they were not very smart. Also if they decided to get in bed with the government they did it because , one they were promised that they would be bailed out or made to believe they were going to get richer from the arrangement. If they agreed to take bad notes from bush or one of the other morons we have in government they should have said no!!!!! because it was not in the best interest of their share holders. To let it fall is no skin off my back , maybe big business is to big ??

And the reason you are defending them is probably you work for them or have a lot of stock in them. Sorry if you do but you should have been more involved in the decision making of the company to prevent this. No ones bails my business out when I make a mistake, so why should I bail them out? Just because they are a big industry?.

A lot of companies had common sense to stay away or limit their exposure to these loan even through they showed hi profits. Did you object when they were rolling in money and spending like it was their last day? Oh !!Sorry it was their last day. They made their bed so lay in it. !!!!

The company is a group of arrogant self centered idiots who think they were above everyone. They showed this with their attitude to continue business as usual like noting has happen. And could not understand why the American people were mad at the flanboant ideal that they could continue on their wild spending spree and bonuses they still wanted.

Must people would be graceful just to still have a job. !!!!!!

Why does AIG deserve all this money?

They're obviously lousey managers and

all they do is party at ritzy resorts.

alec wisner

google 1977 CRA and 1993 NHOI.  the poster is correct. 

google 'ferdinand st james'; you will find that the legislation deregulating banks and the financial services sector was written in 1979.

the 'self-policing' greenspan refers too was freddie and fannie.  his congressional testimony is on c-span.

Since the government owns so much of AIG, it should restructure their insurnce contracts to pay out less than 100% face value.  Paying some money out is better than no money in the long run, 75% is better than 0% if they should actually fail.  This would help with the long term cash position of AIG.  They should go into bankruptcy because other companies will acquire their departments, and their employees at rock bottom prices.

Yah, I think it was AIG that spent some $350 000 on a meeting in some resort... a blurb I saw on the news yesterday.  Looked like undercover footage of these execs in meetings.  If not AIG then another corporation begging for money from the tax payers.

Does anyone else think that this whole bail out thing is very socialist?  Keeps these rich execs living their lives without being accountable for their actions.  WTF!  Cash grab. 

To hell with those places I say party in Dubai BABY YEAH!!!

how can they give them more money when they did the things they did with the other the tax payer take it up the butt again.

Unfortunately,  they are putting a band aid on this problem. It will continue like this until we begin to actually pay down some debt. None of these institutions really have any idea just how much  risky debt they are holding so I believe this problem will stretch over at least the next 2 years.

I was hoping they'd  use the bail out as a way to buy some time to figure out the way to really repair the damages, but with no rules on the completely selfish, greedy upper management of these companies our tax dollars are being completely wasted.

CEOs getting bonuses is just unbelievable. I personally can't believe they still have jobs, especially after the $440K trips. These people ought to be fired --why are they still there?

Heard on NBC this morning abut more $ for AIG and the newscaster stated the government said we will own a partial of AIG.  What do they mean the "government" isn't the people or doesn't the government recognize the people?

The money isn't really "extra" since it came out of the $700 billion bailout that was already passed. It was used to buy stock in the company, with several restrictions on how the money can be used including limited executive compensation and whatnot. All of this is in the article...

M. WHITE BEAR

You say "Arrest Bush Now".

Obviously, you are nothing but an extremist. Would you also recommend arresting Obama if we don't agree with his policies? The root cause of the credit crisis is loose lending standards by Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac, encouraged by Washington's attempts to "bring the dream of home ownership to everyone". Those pushing for these lax standards included far more Democrats than Republicans, although all on the Congressional Oversight Committees need to share the blame.

They are doing the exact oposite, they are buying out the little guys who practiced good business and actually paid attention in college in their business class;  it is a crying shame that these large banks are allowed to use the bailout money to buy little banks out, so that they can become larger and larger, (you know, too large to fail) and they will continue to be the recipient of bailouts in the future.  We must stop this now, why we can still see who is to blame.  I certainly hope Obama can see past this BS and stop it.  I somehow doubt that he will.

Obama doesn't see past his caviar and lobstr dishes, ARE YOU KIDDING? He is already going back on his promisses. Remember what he told of you dems and dem wannabies? That all of those people that don't have insurance will now be able to get the same insurance that he and the rest of Congress and Senata have ... KEEP WAITING and HOLDING YOUR BREATH. I hope that you look good in blue. THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN!

 Using this forum to spout political BS has nothing to do with the topic. He has not went back on any promise since he is not President Bush is. Grow up

I too wonder how much of a party they can throw with this new aid.  And they were under no obligation to buy up the bad loans.  I imagine they had a deal with the government to GUARANTEE the government would make good on those loans, thus becoming a willing middle man.  Don't care if this is a "surface" view; the owners of AIG had an obligation to its stockholders to make wise business decisions...not to cut deals with the government behind stockholders' backs.

What's the matter spreadx, am I hitting your funny bone? What political BS are you talking about? This forum is exactly here so that we can express our opinions, or have you not been reading any of this. Listen to what Obama says lately ... listen carefully, maybe you'll finally hear that he is full of hot air ...

it's obvious that your hatred of mr obama has led to your inability to recall that this discussion is supposed to be about the bailout if AIG..  the people on this forum are scared, rightly so.  our very way of life is challenged at every turn, and i for one don't see any cavalry coming over the hill.  when chrysler was bailed out years ago, Lee Iacocca didn't take a dime in salary or any other consideration from the company untill he had repaid the loan IN FULL, AND BEFORE THE DEADLINE.  remember the french response to "let them eat cake.....?

What happened to free markets? Most people have said not to bail out the auto manufacturers, and I think we should not bail out anyone! If you ran your business poorly and it’s failing that’s not my problem. CEO's and other upper management should be paid by how well they run their company. Right now AIG and the big three automaker's CEOs should be getting minimum wage!!

The "free market" ideology would absolutely devastate the economy and our country because of the massive numbers of people who will be negatively affected. The CEOs would still walk away with millions. However, I completely agree with you on the minimum wage.

This is REAL trickle down folks --you can see how it should work, as demonstrated when the catalyst is debt, but the middle class sees little benefit of trickle down when corporate america is handed tax cuts and subsidies.

   Something had to be done to get money back where it is needed. The big three automakers and even foreign automakers are caught in the credit crunch. They depend on banks to lend money and so do businesses. Since the money was dried up and Bush hit the panic button Congress was forced to pass the bill. The problem is how the monet is being used. It is not in the Banks because they are using it to buy up othe banks. So if you need a car there is no financing available or a business needs capital they get turned down. Had they opened a fund and loaned the money just for loans to people it may have worked. Now it is going to people like AIG who are using it to retire these secuities and the investors are pocketing the money and credit is still hard to come by. This morning Circuit City filed for bankruptcy because of the credit squeeze and short sales.

when we vote with our minds instead of our hearts

Yeah jeff , I like your ideas. They should have done that from the beginning.

Jeff is completely right, except they should not get any bailout money, we need to stop that crap all together.  If they can't run their business, they should not be allowed to continue to run it;  my suggestion would be if they want bailout money, all upper management goes to the unemployment line, and give that job to people who are equiped to do it.

jeff, I do not know when the trip that everyone has their knickers in a twist about was planned, but I can tell you that rewards along those lines for executives/producers/employees who meet and exceed goals are common in any kind of industry. Your statement that those who went on that trip should be sent to prison is absurd. I would hazard an educated guess that the people who attended that trip were from a subsidiary of AIG that in fact is profitable. Maybe in your world $200,000 is an enormous unimagineable income. In a world where people may be bringing in millions in revenue and profitability, such a salary is the norm.

I am not for any kind of bailout, but to keep harping on a trip that took place shows how uninformed and out of touch with reality some people are.

What's next, calling for all retirees from GM/Ford/Chrysler to go to prison because their union negotiated contracts that crippled the automobile industry and they were the recipients of benefits that are unjust?

Who cares who the trip where for and when they where planned life changes and so do the perks of it. They get paid for doing there job and that's why you get  a pay check . The tax payer should not be paying for rewards for them doing there jobs, do you voter in La have some interest in no one stopping this crap. Here a little fact for you if they where doing there jobs so well we would not be bailing them out. Next fact  If they where not using taxpayer money we would not care but they are so yes we have a right to put limits on there bull crap.

There are a lot of people losing there jobs that did not do any of this crap, they would love the job heck with trips. If companies don't like it don't ask for taxpayer money. You take our money we have the right to set up rules on it.

You are right, Voter; trips such as these are common!  But not by a company that is about to go out of business!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is just plain stupidity!  Are you telling me that the money spent on VACATION couldn't be used to help save the business?  While I'm sure it wasn't enough, any amount helps! 

You see, when you receive a massive bailout loan (that saves your sorry a$$) you don't flaunt it and spend it on frivolous vacations!

I'm sure that if it had been poised to the employees set to go on the trips as: we either go on the trip and you lose your job, or we cancel and you get to keep you job: that the employees would have understood!

Anniek, let's see why does it matter when it was planned? Hmmmm maybe cancellation fees etc. Also maybe you'd want a business to keep those employees who are propping up a company in poor times? I can think of a number of reasons. Are you even remotely aware of the diversity of AIG's business interests and its corporate structure?

I'll repeat my question you ignored: when the government bails out Motor City, are you going to clamor for the reduction in benefits paid to union employees who killed that sector?

I'll suggest you read a few posts in this thread by Devils.Advocate. At least he appears to have somewhat of a grasp on the cause of AIG's problems. Try reading those posts with an objective mind instead of one based on hatred and jealousy.

Jeff, the "Voter in LA" thinks that everyone outside CA is uninformed. Yes, it would have cost a whole lot of money to cancel the conference that AIG planned. It would have cost nowhere near what it actually cost ... most likely more than 1/2 billion. They should have cancelled it, done a video conference and it would have sufficed. Executing this conference was like a slap in the face to those of us who are scrounging and watching our pennies. Put those bums in jail and make them pay restitutions, never mind more money. There are VERY qualified people that could run that money hole for a whole lot less and more efficiently. They are way to comfortable in knowing that they will be getting one bail-out after another. This has to STOP!

jeff-498375

We can't do that!  Don't you remember what Grand Poobah Paulson said?  If we impose punitive measures, these fine pillars of our economy won't avail themselves of government funds and then we will be invaded by aliens who will eat all of our pet dogs and force us to work as slaves raising brussel sprouts to be imported to the planet BGIIYNKY.  Don't you realize that?

Well, CEO's who buy bad paper, generally get fired, not bonused.  And shareholders silly enough to invest in companies run by such CEO's can be expected to take the loss.

Here, things have gone pear shaped, and we are expected to invest in this company on the brink of collapse and, as an extra added benefit, have the privilege of buying lots and lots of that bad paper.  Spare me.

Only in the upside down world of Bush and Paulson would this make and sense.  Only 71 days before they are history.

what nobody understands is the futher our economy falls the closer it get to where it should be

WHAT THE HECK are you talking about Amos? Are you from out of space. We have had those nudnicks running our country for the past two years. Look where Pelosi and Reed got us. Obama will not end a war. He'll just escalate it in Afganistan, get it through your head! He is a smooth talker with no substance. Those who voted for him will not finally recognize that the President is not the one that puts forth policy ... it is Congress and the Senate ... it will be interesting to see those people say "what? Obama is not paying for my gas and for my mortgage? But he said that he is for mainstream ..." HA! This will be interesting to watch, that's for sure. Unfortunately this dumb move is affecting those of us who did not vote him.

    More useless political rhetoric. Obama is not the president until January give it a rest.

Bon Voyage.  I think you will find the other developed countries tax higher than the USA.  That is because there are many programs to help everyone in the country.  Programs such as universal health care and free college education.  Pitching in our fair share is part of being in a society.  Call it socialism if you like.  I call it helping each other out instead of being uncaring, selfish, greedy American capitalistic bastards.

I am a common man and I want every working person in this country to be able succeed and retire and leave nest egg for their loved ones. BUT the way to do that is not to raise corporate taxes (making them even less globally competitive).  So you can give more money to the chronic welfare classes.  My father would have committed suicide before standing in line for welfare.  But now we have entire generations of families that never work.  80 % of any welfare package goes to the bars and dealers and are never seen again...PLEASE TELL ME I'M WRONG

Think of all the things that you worry about paying for.  Multiply that exponentially and add hundreds of federal regulations telling you what you must spend money on.  Oh Yeah Company B in Bangladesh is not raising the price of their product, so you can't either, what are the choices cut more and more corners on your product...or move your operation overseas where you can cut overhead costs by 90 %

Capitalism does not work.  America has proven that in the last few months.  There is too much greed in a capitalistic society.  Trickle down economic..... what a joke!!  Employees in America work the longest hours of most developed countries.  I know people who have not taken vacation in years because they are so busy.  Is that having freedom?  Most Europeans get 6 weeks vacation a year no matter what their job is.  In America you will never see 6 weeks vacation in your lifetime.  How many billions of dollars do corporations need?  How many billions of dollars does an individual need?  We could employ millions more people in this country if the big corporations would just cut their profits by small percentage points and hired people.  How many people could be employed if a corporation cut their profits by $2 billion a year?  How many people could be employed if top execs did not take million dollar bonuses each year.  That is being responible and that will get people off welfare.

whats your favorite sports team are they league champs

My father would have committed suicide before standing in line for welfare.  But now we have entire generations of families that never work.

requiring coprorations to pay the same tax rate they were in the 90's (when the economy was flourishing btw) , and giving a tax break to the middle class is hardly welfare. That's Republican drama.

I do agree there are people who abuse welfare they will always find a way to mooch. I am not willing to stop providing  welfare because some people really are down on their luck and some people really can't take care of themselves (the mentally ill etc.)

Why not work fare instead of welfare?????????? they would have to take job of lower pay and we could make up the difference, that is a hand up not a hand out. A hand out never helped anyone in the long run but a hand up does.

umm chuck?

the corporate rate is the same today as it was in the 90s-second highest in the world.  reason number 1 for offshoring, partly because of the schema by which it operates. (2007 PwC Worldwide Tax Guide, at your CPA's office)

jeff,

'profits' are not something stashed in a bank. most businesses are lucky to have 30 - 45 days of operating funds available, if that, even fortune 500's. you watch way too many oliver stone movies if you believe othewise.  second, corporate law says directors and officers must watch out for the stockholder's interest, first and foremost.  courts are backlogged with hundreds of thousands of lawsuits for negligence and breach of fiduciary duty where management failed to do so. 

wildweasel66-358178  Yes, technically , on the tax form,  tax rates have stayed the same...

and I agree with you that  this is the number one reason for off shoring. But as for the second highest rate in the world, well that's how it appears on the surface but that's not what they are actually paying.

You might find these  interesting.

http://www.smartmoney.com/investing/economy/high-corporate-tax-rate-is-misleading-22463/

http://www.cbpp.org/3-27-08tax.htm

Imo, Obama's tax plan for corporations won't work without closing the numerous loopholes they already use to avoid paying taxes, taxes paid to support the very country in which they live and generate most of their revenue. If they won't support America, why should we support them?

Watching out for the best interest of the stockholders does not mean screwing your employees for every last dime. It does not mean outsourcing or using international tax shelters to avoid your tax liability....or rewarding incompetent management with golden parachutes.

It does not mean hiring your buddy Ceo who was just fired for incompetence at one corporation to run another one into the ground. This is cronyism..  Charles Prince of citibank comes to mind, there are many others.

Chuck--

If you don't like cronyism, or hiring incompetent buddies.....you are going to blow a gasket when you see who Obama has at the top of his very short list for Attorney General...........she fills that bill on both counts.

cbpp---to the left of marx, union funded.  objectivity = 0.

the smartmoney article is interesting, since i'm a tax director for a major swiss insurance co. with US headquarters in philly.  i wish they would start naming these offshore 'havens' because my colleagues and i would get huge bonuses for 'stashing profits' (a perjorative term if there ever was one). with IRS and Treasury oversight of foreign bank accounts held by US individuals and businesses, it would take exactly 1 or 2 transactions of moving cash overseas to get the feds in that bank and corporate office.  i've seen it happen, even for the most mundane of business purposes, such as making a loan payment.

profits are not a bank account; rather it is a 'moving picture' of what happened over the course of a calendar year or quarter. i will put a year's salary on the line that if you look at any one of the fortune 500 quarterly earnings releases, and compare that to the bank balance, they in no way resemble one another. cash sits in a corporate bank account about 10-15 days, on average. of course there are exceptions.

that aside, you reference 'loopholes'.  chapter and verse of the IRC or CFR please. if not available, the Joint Conference Committee Bluebook section will suffice.  if you're so certain these loopholes exist, this should be quite easy.  the cbpp will give you a list of them.  probably includes the deduction for wages and benefits, and other common business expenses like interest, marketing, bad debts etc.

it might enlighten you to read who closed many of the corporate tax shelters.  hint: he brought the ussr to it's economic knees, and militarily forced them to abandon a nuclear first strike policy.  the legislation was signed in 1986.

wildweasel; not much truth in your postings. as far as AIG is concerned, I already posted some Facts---anyone can just google [ aig greenberg cia bush ]. you can also find the names of other "off-shore" companies that connect to AIG

this post is in reply to your parroting of what has already been shown to be False---your BS about the Corp Tax being the second highest, globally---lets see:

Study says most corporations pay no U.S. income taxes

Tue Aug 12, 2008

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Most U.S. and foreign corporations doing business in the United States avoid paying any federal income taxes, despite trillions of dollars worth of sales, a government study released on Tuesday said.

April 17, 2002
A startling surge in corporate tax welfare is expected to drive corporate income taxes over the next two years down to only 1.3 percent of the gross domestic product. That will be the lowest level since the early 1980s—and the second lowest level in at least six decades.

Microsoft enjoyed more than $12 billion in total tax breaks over the past five years. In fact, Microsoft actually paid no tax at all in 1999, despite $12.3 billion in reported U.S. profits. Microsoft’s tax rate for the past two years was only 1.8 percent on $21.9 billion in pretax U.S. profits.

General Electric, America’s most profitable corporation, reported $50.8 billion in U.S. profits over the past five years, but paid only 11.5 percent of that in federal income taxes. That low tax rate reflected almost $12 billion in corporate tax welfare for GE.

Ford enjoyed $9.1 billion in corporate tax welfare over the past five years. It reported $18.6 billion in U.S. profits over the past two years, but paid a tax rate of only 5.7 percent.

Worldcom paid no taxes at all in two of the last three years, despite reported U.S. profits of $15.2 billion. Worldcom’s total tax rate over the three years was only 1.6%. Corporate tax welfare slashed Worldcom’s tax bill by $5.3 billion over the past five years.

IBM reported $5.7 billion in U.S. profits in 2000, but paid only 3.4 percent of that in federal income taxes. In 1997, IBM reported $3.1 billion in U.S. profits, and instead of paying taxes, got an outright tax rebate. Over the past five years, IBM enjoyed a total of $4.7 billion in corporate tax welfare.

General Motors paid no taxes at all in three of the last five years, despite $12.5 billion in reported U.S. profits. GM’s tax rate for the past three years was negative 1.3 percent. Its corporate tax welfare totaled $3.6 billion over the past five years.

Enron paid no income taxes at all in four of the past five years, despite $1.8 billion in reported U.S. profits. Enron’s total taxes over the five years were a negative $381 million. Its corporate tax welfare totaled $1.0 billion.

El Paso Energy reported $1.6 billion in U.S. profits over the past five years, but paid less than nothing in federal income taxes, getting tax rebates of $254 million. El Paso’s tax rate over the five years was negative 15.5 percent. Its corporate welfare totaled $827 million.

Colgate-Palmolive paid no taxes at all in three of the past five years, despite $1.6 billion in reported U.S. profits. Colgate’s total tax rate over the five years was negative 1.3 percent, due to $595 million in corporate tax welfare.

Navistar, on $1.4 billion in U.S. profits over the past five years, paid only $28 million in federal income taxes, a tax rate of only 2 percent. Navistar’s corporate tax welfare totaled $451 million.

Feb. 27, 2008  

Big Oil Can Afford to Forgo Tax Breaks – But Renewable Energy Can’t; Congress Must Reform Subsidies, End Giveaways, Support Clean Energy

Statement of Tyson Slocum, Director of Public Citizen’s Energy Program

The U.S. House of Representatives voted to hold Big Oil accountable today when it passed H.R. 5351, the “Renewable Energy and Energy Conservation Tax Act of 2008,” which repeals nearly $18 billion in oil company subsidies over the next decade and dedicates the money to renewable energy and energy efficiency investments.........

The measure passed yesterday would repeal a tax break oil and gas firms received in 2004 that effectively lowered their corporate tax rates.

The five companies hauled before the House Select Committee on Energy Independence and Global Warming -- Exxon Mobil Corp., Shell Oil Co., BP America Inc., Chevron Corp. and ConocoPhillips -- made $123 billion last year. Exxon alone racked up a record $40 billion in profits.

[[[ aside from Tax Beaks, especially those given to companies who moved Operations & Jobs Overseas, how about all the subsidies----Subsidy

Subsidies considered excessive, unwarranted, wasteful, unfair, inefficient, or bought by lobbying are often called corporate welfare. The label of corporate welfare is often used to decry projects advertised as benefiting the general welfare that spend a disproportionate amount of funds on large corporations

[[[ and what about unpaid Royalties and underreported production? How can any American defend these past near 8 years? ]]]

JAN 24, 2007

Whistleblower Wins Oil Royalty Lawsuit: $7.5 Million Underpaid by Kerr-McGee

Oil company Kerr-McGee (now a unit of Anadarko Petroleum) underpaid $7.5 million in royalties according to a jury verdict reached in Denver yesterday in a whistleblower lawsuit filed by former Interior Department auditor, Bobby Maxwell. The verdict is an embarassment to the Interior Department's Minerals Management Service (MMS) which claimed that the case had no merit and is under fire from Congress for a series of debacles.

Anadarko could be liable for “double or triple times” the jury verdict “as well as penalties of up to $11,000 for each of 1,200 false statements that the company is accused of making in its royalty reports to the government,” according to the New York Times. Anadarko claimed it intends to appeal.

The lawsuit (pdf) was filed by Bobby Maxwell, a highly decorated auditor with more than two decades of government experience. Mr. Maxwell's case is the first of several filed by government whistleblowers who allege that Interior Department officials told them not to bill oil companies for royalties the companies owed for drilling oil and gas from federal leases. Insiders say the agency's refusal to collect the royalties is part of a pattern of complicity toward the industry.

According to the New York Times (registration req'd), Mr. Maxwell lost his job just one week after his lawsuit was made public in a "reorganization" by the Minerals Management Service. Last week, Senator Ron Wyden raised concerns in a Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee hearing about possible retaliation against three additional MMS auditors based in Oklahoma who filed similar royalty underpayment lawsuits -- Randy Little, Joel Arnold, and Lanis Morris. In response, Interior Department Assistant Secretary Steve Allred promised that he would not tolerate retaliation against the whistleblowers.

Under rules of the False Claims Act, whistleblowers who mount such cases on their own are eligible for up to 30% of the proceeds of the case, but get less if the government joins the case. According to unconfirmed sources, the Interior Department may have urged the Justice Department not to intevene in the whistleblower suits.

The Department of Interior's Inspector General (IG) is currently examining the whistleblower lawsuits as well as conducting a criminal investigation into the MMS' Royalty-in-Kind program. In testimony during the Senate hearing last week, the IG discussed how interest payments made by the oil companies were one area where he believed additional oil company underpayments were occurring. One of the whistleblower lawsuits appears to have brought this problem to light. The IG also made the astonishing statement that collection of oil royalties is "more or less an honor system."

Anadarko's Kerr-McGee unit has the distinction of being the oil company which has filed suit to challenge the government's ability to collect any royalties at all on deep water wells in the Gulf of Mexico, arguing that the law never intended it. According to the Government Accountability Office (pdf), if Kerr McGee succeeds, the government would lose $60 billion.

====================================================

“I believe the management we were under was showing favoritism to the oil industry,” Maxwell told CNN.

Maxwell is referring to a tiny agency within the Department of the Interior called the Minerals Management Service, which manages the nation’s natural gas, oil and other mineral resources on federal lands.

A report, conducted by the Interior Department’s inspector general and released earlier this month, found that employees at the agency received improper gifts from energy industry officials and engaged with them in illegal drug use and inappropriate sexual relations. It looked at activities at the agency from 2003 through 2006.

Maxwell said the report doesn’t surprise him. The agency, he said, is corrupt “top to bottom.”

 Watch a failure to “protect America’s interests” »

“It sounds like they forgot they work for the government,” he said. “It’s disgusting. … There’s no excuse for that. Those people should not be working in those positions at all.

“They crossed a lot of lines that should never have been crossed,” he said. “They lost all objectivity.”

Maxwell was in charge of keeping track of the millions in royalty payments owed taxpayers by oil and gas companies who explored and found oil on U.S. government lands.

He estimates he and his team were responsible for saving the government close to $500 million in royalties, either underpaid or somehow skipped by oil and gas companies, over the years.

He received the Interior Department’s highest award in 2003 for his work. But not long afterward, his job was killed.

He believes it was retribution for his cracking down on Big Oil and blowing the whistle on what he believes was a “cult of corruption” within the agency. The Interior Department denies that, saying his job was reorganized as part of routine restructuring.

Just before he lost his job, he said, one of his superiors in Washington ordered him not to investigate why Shell Oil had raised its oil transportation costs. Maxwell said it jumped from 90 cents to $3 a barrel without adequate explanation. The government paid Shell to transport oil from offshore platforms.

When asked why a government worker would tell an auditor not to investigate, he said: “I believe it started from the top down,” he said.

Shell Oil told CNN it “pays the same rate any shipper does” and that it has “never engaged in fraudulent transactions or entered into sham contracts as Mr. Maxwell alleges.”

Maxwell, a registered independent, said the shift in attitude at the agency began about seven or eight years ago, about the time the Bush administration came into power. He said he was discouraged from aggressively auditing oil companies.

http://royaldutchshellplc.com/2008/10/15/whistleblower-oil-watchdog-agency-cult-of-corruption/

Thank you.  No more money for "ivory tower queens."

I don't think Obama is going to change the country.  I think he's going to make the tough choices that someone has needed to make for a long time now.  This may not make him popular with the people after four years, but someone's got to put his rep on the line and start cleaning up some of the mess (9-trillion-dollar debt, economic uncertainty, and two wars with no end in sight).

I voted for him because I think he will do a good job of coordinating the efforts of people who actually do know what they are doing to fix some of these problems.  The last thing we need is a maverick in a time when it is more necessary than ever before to bring the brightest minds in the nation together to work on the biggest problems we've ever had.

Hey NC ... already you are making excuses for the guy? You people are incredible! John is right! No more smiles ... he is smart enough to know that he is in a pickle. He is going to be backpeddling all the way through his presidency. You got what you wanted, but as they say, I hate the fact that I have to put up with the nonsence that all of you who voted for him will be putting the rest of us through. NO, I don't think that he'll do anything with this mess, because he CANNOT! He doesn't have the experience to run anything, not even his household. His wife does that! He'll surround himself with people who bankrupted Fanny and Freddy and AIG and others ... is this what we want? NOPE, that is NOT what I want ... lies and more lies and more big money out the window ...

I'm not making excuses for anyone.  What we needed was a capable leader and coordinator, not someone who thinks he's an expert on everything.  And in my opinion, that's what we got.

Do not even answer this person he is obviously just here for political ppurposes blaming a guy who isn't even in the oval office yet of massive failure. I just put it in the ignore list

oooh spreadex ... I am hitting your funny bone ... how delightful ... nobody is blaming Obama, not yet, anyway. I am simply stating that he won't be able to do a darn thing all by himself. That's not what presidents do, spreadx. That's why we have Pelosi and Reed ... they'll tell him what to do ... I am only hoping that he does reach across the isles as he said during his run, but I am very concerned that we are ging to end up in a socialist-type society ... the government is not going to save us, spreadex, they have messed up everything from time beyond Bush ... in a way I feel sorry for this bright young man, he is like the sacrificial lamb ... he should have waited at least four more years ... he would have gained more experience and see how government really works ... he is in for a huge surprise and so are his supporters ... remember, Pelosi and Reed are running the show and those two are dangerous ...

AIG is run by a bunch of greedy, lying self serving whores. The minute they got the last bailout they spend a half million on a retreat for top execs, and a ton of more money on a trip to Europe to hunt foxes. 

Yeah, i suppose Christmas bonus time is coming, and they do need more bailout to assure everyone gets rewarded for this cluster F - - - of a year, commensurate with what they are accustomed to. They need to be sure they keep the "top performing people" they have and prevent them from going to another company.

The only jobs those crooks should be able to get are ones where you have to say....."do you want fries with that?" after each order is placed.

The ones left should all have their salaries cut to something more in tune with what the rest of us make. Then maybe they will understand the problems they've helped cause for us all with retirement savings on the line.

So if we are bailing out the people who are holding the paper from the low lives who bought homes they cannot afford, and we have bailed out the bank who per another poster, already got paid on these loans greedy people who bought homes they could not afford, shouldn't we just leave well enough alone and let the greedy people find a way to support their lifestyles themselves.

NO MORE BAIL OUTS. It has gone too far.

We need to send a bunch of people to jail for fraud.

small talk,

obama has never once reached across the aisle.

his liberal voting record is 99% pure according to ADA (americans for democratic actions-an offshoot of the SDS and Weather Underground of the 60s).

YOU can drop AIG a line telling them that you've paid your last premium:

https://securecontent.aig.com/contact-aig_20_19050.html

You can drop the TREASURY Department a line telling them that you're reporting them for abuse of taxpayer dollars.

http://www.treas.gov/inspector-general/hotline.shtml

Spread these links around... let's make some more American noise today.

amos...very good, very very good.

Amos... you wish that was the plight of every CEO. We all do. And fact is, the one you describe usually do a pretty decent job. The rest of them rose from hell.

stop ALL credit card payments..

That will be our next bailout!  We blame the government for much of this but the consumers are just to blame.  How many lived off the equity of their homes and credit cards to keep up with the Jone's???? 

The only difference is you won't get bailed out the banks will and the CEO's, upper management and their cronies in the government will continue to live their lavish lives while your credit rating will be in the gutter.

It's all about greed.  The American dream became the American greed!  I want more and more and I don't care who will pay for it... got have it.

while it's true many people used credit cards to keep up with the Jones, many did it because medical bills overwhelmed them or unemployment, thought to be temp.

Not paying the bills only leads you into court, another blemish on your credit report, etc. However, I don't think you go to jail for not paying your bills... just garnishments til the cows come home... let me know how that pans out.....

What needs to change is the government to step in and stop the credit card companies from charging 'loan shark' interest rates. last I heard that is still against the law.....

... according to what I am hearing, they have a trillion in assets ...

smalltalk

I did some checking.  Book equity at 6/30/08 was $78.1 billion.  This is before the most recent losses.  Market Cap today is only $6.13 billion.  It's hard to say what AIG is worth but cashflow from operations is insufficient to meet its obligations. 

I would suggest that their off-balance sheet exposure to credit default swaps far outweighs their tangible equity.  With insufficient cashflow and effectively being taken over they can't have much value, except to the taxpayers, of course, some day, hopefully, we'll see.

Thank you, PassthePork ... the way I understand it is that the trillion includes all of their operations all around the world ... I will do some research on that and update my note ... It appears that they have some quite profitable operations so I would suggest that they use them to bail their sorry behinds out ... actually, it is easier said than done, I understand. I am so angry about AIG and others like them that frankly, I feel that I don't care if they go bust and up in smoke completely. Although I do understand what the worldwide ramifications could end up being. Their top management needs to be, however, indited and replaced, IMMEDIATELY ...

Thank you smalltalk, I completely agree.

As for profitable operations I think that is the life insurance division, which fortunately must keep reserves to meet obligations related to death, policy loans and policy surrender.  Not sure of all the regs, but ultimately government has oversight responsibility which means what at the end of the day?!  Not sure, but scares the hell out of me.

I would assume they have a lot of reinsurance business also, but the risk there is can the other insurance companies meet their obligations.  Several of them worldwide are relying on government liquidity.  Sorry.......taxpayer liquidity.

somebody gets it...during the  1980  the DOW was flirting with 1000...if your include 5% annual growth of the economy (which would be amazing) X 28 years you get a dow that should be around  2400(not 10,000)...we have allowed/forced government to finger bang our economy through deficit spending and social programs for political gain...

Next election vote out every idiot in Congress that brought this bailout about.

dari....I thought we just tried this?

There may be a need for a serious investigation here.  This much money into one failing company - something stinks.  Why, the gov't concern for AIG?  Something is just not right.

Pass the Pork,

We certainly did NOT do a good job! All of the incumbants in my area got voted in despite the constant talk of "throw the bums out." It's a disgrace.

And I too see the strain on Obama's face. God help him, he has a lot of work to do!

PassthePork - I believe dari was referring to mid-term elections in two years.  Not all in Congress were up for re-election this time around.

And sadly, with no glitz or glam, the mid-term elections, as in the past will go by un-noticed.

readcarefully

You are probably right, but I also echo SickNTired's comments that we had an opportunity Nov. 4th and for the most part incumbents in my area who voted for the bailout were re-elected.

Why not if they cry they get our tax money When they where all making big money they should have put some back duhhhhhhhh. Oh hell that the poor people they keep telling to save and the working class. The rich will just take our money what was I thinking

LOL! Good one!

I wonder if they have something on the Goverment...?

Yes, it is suspicious - does AIG have something on the gov't?

ya instead of the government try the giverment to the rich that is

"Yes, it is suspicious - does AIG have something on the gov't?"

 Probably something  more like the Pelosi gang owns large amounts of AIG stock and don't want to see their financial empires crumble.

hmmm now there's a thought.....

never...this argument was made during the bailout...on every blog....vote out bailout supporters...what did we do...nothing.  we as americans no longer have the ability to remember past the last episode of survivor or project runway...AND THE POLITITONS KNOW IT

Amos, exactly.  Americans are pretty much willing to blog a little then saunter back to the sofa for Survivor.  It's true.  I am guilty also.

Anyone know why Gilligan's Island isn't on TV anywhere anymore?

Nothing is going to get better for the "lower class and middle class". NOT A BLESSED THING! My company has all these huge quarterly bonuses for the VPs and they are talking layoffs ... do you think that anything will change? I don't think so. Certainly not because of Obama. The man has no clue what it is like to run anything, now he is the top honcho of the "free world". INCREDIBLE!!!